In a rare interview with 60 Minutes, Pope Francis spoke with host Norah O’Donnell on an array of topics — including the wars in Ukraine and Gaza, migration crises across the globe, sexual abuse in the church, and the blessing of same-sex couples.
The 60 Minutes interview with the pope — the final, edited version lasting less than 14 minutes — received the most attention due to the pope’s discussion of same-sex couples.
O’Donnell asked a question that operated on the premise that Pope Francis made a “big change” to church teaching regarding same-sex couples. In his response, Pope Francis immediately challenged her premise:
Norah O’Donnell: Last year you decided to allow Catholic priests to bless same-sex couples. That’s a big change. Why?
Okay, so I’m taking a bit of a victory lap here, I’ll admit. Clearly, O’Donnell did not read my articles about what Pope Francis has actually penned on the subject or what the Vatican has lately declared on gender ideology (sad!). But Pope Francis — as he stated in his interview — has never defended the blessing of a same-sex couple insofar as the blessing refers to their union. He has, rather, advocated the blessing of individuals who are same-sex-attracted but seek to live in communion with church teaching, who have sent out “a plea to God for help, a supplication to live better.”
The pope immediately clarified this distinction with O’Donnell and, in doing so, did not mince his words (which are here translated from his native Spanish).
Pope Francis: No, what I allowed was not to bless the union. That cannot be done because that is not the sacrament. I cannot. The Lord made it that way. But to bless each person, yes. The blessing is for everyone. For everyone. To bless a homosexual-type union, however, goes against the given right, against the law of the Church.
Pope Francis quickly affirmed that the church cannot “progress” or “move forward” on the doctrine of matrimony. The sacrament of marriage, between one man and one woman, reveals a divine truth about human beings — i.e., “The Lord made it that way.” While much more likely to embrace liberal rhetoric on topics of migration, climate change, and pacifism, Pope Francis has never tried to change unchangeable doctrine.
O’Donnell, desperate to hang onto this mirage, this palatable vision of a liberal pope, then asked —
Norah O’Donnell: You have said, “Who am I to judge?” “Homosexuality is not a crime.”
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): No. It is a human fact.
Here, Pope Francis was still offering standard Catholic teaching on homosexuality: that one is not culpable for experiencing same-sex attraction, and that general efforts to punish such unchosen feelings are misguided. However, sexual relations outside of marriage — which Pope Francis has clearly defined — remain disordered.
O’Donnell then shifted her tone, attacking a favorite boogeyman: the “conservative bishops in the United States.”
Norah O’Donnell: There are conservative bishops in the United States that oppose your new efforts to revisit teachings and traditions. How do you address their criticism?
Pope Francis (In Spanish/English translation): You used an adjective, “conservative.” That is, conservative is one who clings to something and does not want to see beyond that. It is a suicidal attitude. Because one thing is to take tradition into account, to consider situations from the past, but quite another is to be closed up inside a dogmatic box.
Before anyone launches into a tirade for or against said “conservative bishops,” it is important to note that this is an ambiguous category. For starters, American conservatism and European conservatism tend to look very different from each other. Mitt Romney and Viktor Orbán (Hungary’s prime minister) have both received the title of “conservative” in their home countries, although I’m fairly certain one would not like to be identified with the other.
Even the pope’s definition of “conservative” reveals that he is addressing a reactionary position, an unwillingness to engage with the world as it is, a belief that the only way forward is backward — a “suicidal attitude.” I would say, for example, Bishop Robert Barron is a “conservative” bishop, if the term is applied under its general American meaning — but Bishop Barron is not a “conservative” according to Pope Francis’s definition.
Unsurprisingly, given the convolution of the pope’s terminology, conservative Catholics in the U.S. have long felt themselves unjustly criticized by Pope Francis. While his rhetoric toward devout American Catholics leaves much to be desired, the pope has still affirmed every traditional Church teaching that is a current topic of cultural controversy, including the sacrament of marriage, the ordination of men to the priesthood, the moral dangers of surrogacy and in vitro fertilization, and the horror of socially entrenched abortion.
To those who are counting down the days until the church “enters the 21st century” — i.e., adopts progressive ideology on sex and gender — you’re going to have to count forever.