Jann Wenner, the co-founder of Rolling Stone magazine, claimed the reason no women or people of color appear in his upcoming book of interviews with rock stars was because “none of them were . . . articulate enough” on an “intellectual level.”

Pressed to defend his comments in light of figures such as Joni Mitchell, Janis Joplin, and Stevie Wonder, Wenner doubled down on his statement. “[G]o have a deep conversation with Grace Slick or Janis Joplin. Please, be my guest,” Wenner pushes back. “You know, Joni was not a philosopher of rock ’n’ roll. She didn’t, in my mind, meet that test. Not by her work, not by other interviews she did. The people I interviewed were the kind of philosophers of rock.”

“Of Black artists — you know, Stevie Wonder, genius, right? I suppose when you use a word as broad as ‘masters,’ the fault is using that word. Maybe Marvin Gaye, or Curtis Mayfield? I mean, they just didn’t articulate at that level,” Wenner maintained in a wide-ranging interview with the New York Times published on Friday.

Wenner’s upcoming book, The Masters, features conversations with “philosophers of rock,” including Mick Jagger, Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan, and Bono. However, Times journalist David Marchese zeroed in on Wenner’s supposed snub of artists who are not “white guys.”

“In the introduction, you acknowledge that performers of color and women performers are just not in your zeitgeist. Which to my mind, is not plausible for Jann Wenner. Janis Joplin, Joni Mitchell, Stevie Nicks, Stevie Wonder, the list keeps going — not in your zeitgeist?”

Wenner’s insistence that ’60s and ’70s female and black artists failed to articulate “a particular spirit and a particular attitude about rock’n’roll” left the interviewer unsatisfied. “I think the problem is when you start saying things like ‘they’ or ‘these artists can’t.’ Really, it’s a reflection of what you’re interested in more than any ability or inability on the part of these artists, isn’t it?,” Marchese responded.

The exchange led Wenner to confess: “for public relations’ sake, maybe I should have gone and found one Black and one woman artist to include here that didn’t measure up to that same historical standard, just to avert this kind of criticism.”

Wenner also landed in hot water for comments made in the same interview appearing to downplay the journalistic failings of high-profile reporting from Rolling Stone including an infamous piece falsely alleging that a University of Virginia student was sexually assaulted by fraternity members. While the outlet was forced to ultimately retract the story and pay millions in a later defamation lawsuit, Wenner nevertheless gave a lukewarm semi-defense of the piece.

“The University of Virginia story was not a failure of intent, or an attempt to be loose with the facts. You get beyond the factual errors that sank that story, and it was really about the issue of rape and how it affects women on campus, their lack of rights. Other than this one key fact that the rape described actually was a fabrication of this woman, the rest of the story was bulletproof.”