On Tuesday, the New York Times released an opinion podcast with host Ezra Klein. The guest of the podcast was released ICE detainee and green card holder Mahmoud Khalil. The Trump administration had been attempting to deport Khalil based on claims of being a Hamas sympathizer. The accusations were seemingly proved when Klein allowed Khalil to justify October 7th and downplay anti-Semitism during Columbia pro-Palestine protests. 

Khalil personalized the terror attacks on Israeli civilians by referring to October 7th as unfortunate, saying “we couldn’t avoid such a moment” and going on to make the case for why the attack was needed:

EZRA KLEIN: What do you mean we had to reach this moment? What moment is this?

(...)

KHALIL: And you can see that the situation is not sustainable. You have an Israeli government that’s absolutely ignoring Palestinians. They are trying to make that deal with Saudi and just happy about their Abraham Accord without looking at Palestinians as if Palestinians are not part of the equation. And they circumvent to the Palestinian question.

And it’s clear, it’s becoming more and more violent. By October 6, over 200 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces and settlers. Over 40 of them were children. So that’s what I mean by unfortunately, we couldn’t avoid such, such a moment.

Khalil made it seem like 200 Palestinians were killed on October 6, leading to an instant retaliation the next day. In reality, from January to October 6th 2023, it was estimated that 208 people were killed. The reports don't distinguish civilians from militants.

That reasoning was good enough for Khalil to rationalize that “we,” in reference to Hamas, had no choice but to commit the October 7 atrocities. No choice but to mow down thousands of civilians at a concert, in the streets, and in their homes using automatic weapons.   

Klein, who made a point of noting that he’s Jewish, told Khalil that nobody on Columbia's campus during the protests felt as unsafe as he did (Click “expand”): 

KLEIN: Look, I’m Jewish. I don’t take anti-Semitism lightly. You should see my inbox. And it can be true that Jews can be unsafe. But the idea and it’s not — and it is real that there is anti-Semitism at Columbia. But nobody there ended up as unsafe as you did.

KHALIL: Yeah I mean, I would push back regarding anti-Semitism at Columbia. I would really push back on that.

KLEIN: That there was none?

KHALIL: I wouldn’t say there was none. I would say there isn’t this manufactured hysteria about anti-Semitism at Columbia because of the protests, because the Proud Boys were at the doors of Columbia, the very right wing, group. And there are incidents here and there. But it’s not that anti-Semitism is happening at Columbia because of the Palestine movement. This is what I would always push back.

The outrageous claim that Khalil was the most unsafe person there opened the door for him to denounce any anti-Semitism occurring at all due to the pro-Palestine movement. Columbia recently had to pay the federal government $200 million dollars and announce an agreement to implement changes due to their failure to address anti-Semitism and Jewish students' concerns. 

Columbia also released a report that two-thirds of its Jewish students reported not feeling accepted on campus as a result of the protests.

After Klein softly asked about the antisemitism, Khalil went on to talk about popular phrases in the pro-Palestinian movement that people often see as a call to violence. He was proud that such chants were making Jewish students scared (Click “expand”):

KHALIL: And I know it’s uncomfortable because supporting a genocide should be uncomfortable. Like it’s being uncomfortable is very different from being unsafe. And I want to get into the chants like “From the river to the sea,” from “Globalize the intifada” about all of that. Like I heard someone on your podcast saying like ‘oh, I don’t like the chant globalize the intifada.” Yeah like, don’t like it. It’s not being chanted for you to like it. It’s actually to make you uncomfortable. So you have to think about your complicity in what’s happening.

(...)

KLEIN: I’m just saying: When you say that, nobody ever said it this way.

KHALIL:  No, no, I’m saying the way that the students are saying that and even —

KLEIN: The students. That’s fair, I think.

KHALIL: Yeah, the students never said that. Because to us it means: Let’s globalize the struggle to liberate Palestine — that it shouldn’t feel convenient where Palestinians are being killed every day and the world is silent. That’s what the uprising is about.

And again, I don’t want to sanitize history. And I told you the second intifada involved violent acts. But overwhelmingly they were peaceful. And in the second intifada, over 3,000 Palestinians were killed by Israel. The first intifada, 1,000 Palestinians were killed by Israel too.

Khalil said the term “globalize the intifada” was meant to make Jews uncomfortable, but that none of the students from Columbia use it in a violent way. Of course, you have a better chance at selling ice to an Eskimo than convincing Jewish people that the term doesn’t call for their eradication. 

Klein submitted the argument and said Khalil's assessment was “fair.” This allowed for Khalil to “sanitize history” by introducing the lie of an ‘overwhelmingly peaceful’ Second Intifada. 

The Second Intifada saw the killing of around 1,100 Israelis. Including the barbaric use of 127 different suicide bombers against women and children on public transportation.

The full transcript is below. Click "expand" to view:

New York Times Opinion Podcast with Ezra Klein
August 5th, 2025

(...)

19:58

EZRA KLEIN: What do you mean we had to reach this moment? What moment is this?

MAHMOUD KHALIL: I was interning at UNRWA at that point—

KLEIN: The United Nations

KHALIL: United Nations Relief and Works Agency at the UN at their New York office. And as part of my internship, my research and work was focused on, Palestine, on the situation in the West Bank and Gaza.

And you can see that the situation is not sustainable. You have an Israeli government that’s absolutely ignoring Palestinians. They are trying to make that deal with Saudi and just happy about their Abraham Accord without looking at Palestinians as if Palestinians are not part of the equation. And they circumvent to the Palestinian question.

And it’s clear, it’s becoming more and more violent. By October 6, over 200 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces and settlers. Over 40 of them were children. So that’s what I mean by unfortunately, we couldn’t avoid such, such a moment.

And it was absolutely difficult. To see not only the horrific images, but also the response of Israel.

(...)

1:14:36

KLEIN: Look, I’m Jewish. I don’t take anti-Semitism lightly. You should see my inbox. And it can be true that Jews can be unsafe. But the idea and it’s not — and it is real that there is anti-Semitism at Columbia. But nobody there ended up as unsafe as you did.

KHALIL: Yeah I mean, I would push back regarding anti-Semitism at Columbia. I would really push back on that.

KLEIN: That there was none?

KHALIL: I wouldn’t say there was none. I would say there isn’t this manufactured hysteria about anti-Semitism at Columbia because of the protests, because the Proud Boys were at the doors of Columbia, the very right wing, group. And there are incidents here and there. But it’s not that anti-Semitism is happening at Columbia because of the Palestine movement. This is what I would always push back.

(...)

1:16:10

KHALIL: … because of a lot of the students who targeted me are pro-Israel students. It’s not like – The same four or five students would tweet about me every day just to silence me, because it was easier for them to silence me, to throw me in prison than actually reflect on what I’m saying than actually listening to this, even if it’s uncomfortable.

And I know it’s uncomfortable because supporting a genocide should be uncomfortable. Like it’s being uncomfortable is very different from being unsafe. And I want to get into the chants like “From the river to the sea,” from “Globalize the intifada” about all of that. Like I heard someone on your podcast saying like ‘oh, I don’t like the chant globalize the intifada.” Yeah like, don’t like it. It’s not being chanted for you to like it. It’s actually to make you uncomfortable. So you have to think about your complicity in what’s happening.

(...)

1:19:39

KLEIN: There have been plenty of periods when Hamas meant from things like that was much more annihilatory.

KHALIL:  But the intifada was not started by Hamas.

KLEIN: No, I agree, but it has. But it — but the second intifada very much involved them.

KHALIL: Involved — But that doesn’t mean it started — it started because of —

KLEIN: I’m just saying: When you say that, nobody ever said it this way.

KHALIL:  No, no, I’m saying the way that the students are saying that and even —

KLEIN: The students. That’s fair, I think.

KHALIL: Yeah, the students never said that. Because to us it means: Let’s globalize the struggle to liberate Palestine — that it shouldn’t feel convenient where Palestinians are being killed every day and the world is silent. That’s what the uprising is about.

And again, I don’t want to sanitize history. And I told you the second intifada involved violent acts. But overwhelmingly they were peaceful. And in the second intifada, over 3,000 Palestinians were killed by Israel. The first intifada, 1,000 Palestinians were killed by Israel too.

(…)